Innovating Leadership: Co-Creating Our Future

Guest: Paul Gibbons 
Why do intelligent leaders approve sound change initiatives, then struggle to turn them into action? 
In this episode, host Maureen Metcalf speaks with Paul Gibbons, organizational change expert and author of The Science of Successful Organizational Change. Drawing on behavioral science, philosophy, and decades of business experience, Paul explains why facts and rational arguments alone rarely produce lasting change. 
The conversation explores the hidden psychological forces that shape major initiatives. Planning bias causes leaders to underestimate complexity, while sunk-cost bias keeps organizations investing in projects that should be dropped. Habits and automatic behaviors can defeat even the strongest intentions, and repeated, poorly coordinated transformations leave employees exhausted. 
Listeners will gain insights on: 
Why knowing what should change does not guarantee action 
How simple habits influence behavior 
How change fatigue undermines organizational performance 
How change agility can be developed throughout an organization, and 
What evidence-based management reveals about common business practices. 
Paul also challenges conventional “carrot and stick” approaches to motivation and explains how choice architecture can influence behavior without coercion. 
This conversation offers you a more rigorous way to understand organizational change...and a practical foundation for building organizations capable of learning, adapting, and thriving under pressure. 
 
Other episodes with Paul you'll enjoy: 
- Finding Meaning, Joy, & Purpose in What You Do 
- Leadership Myths & the War on Truth 
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn. 
RESOURCES:   
Paul's book, The Science of Organizational Change, is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4wMwlNY. 
 
The book Nudge he referenced, by Thaler & Sunstein, about changing behaviors is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4fPeEHE, and as an audiobook at https://amzn.to/4g0AeaP.   
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.  
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 . The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ. 
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.  
 
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OUR PODCAST TEAM:   
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf 
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko 
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan 
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik 
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay. 
CONNECT WITH US:  
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  
LinkedIn: www.bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  
 
Loved this episode? Like and subscribe!  
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About Our Guest:   
Paul Gibbons is an AI-adoption strategist, leadership thinker, author, and keynote speaker working at the intersection of artificial intelligence, organizational change, and human behavior. During more than three decades in strategy, leadership, and transformation, he has held roles with IBM Consulting, Deloitte, and PwC and advised organizations including Google, Microsoft, HSBC, Barclays, Comcast, and KPMG. He founded Future Considerations, a prominent European leadership-development firm, and wrote The Science of Organizational Change, which introduced behavioral science more fully into change-management practice. His current work focuses on people-first AI adoption, leadership capability, behavioral governance, and helping organizations adapt continuously as technology evolves. His latest book is Adopting AI: The People-First Approach.

Guest: Manfred Kets de Vries
Every executive has experienced it.
A strategy looked sound. The data was convincing. The leadership team agreed. Yet the outcome still fell short.
Why?
According to renowned leadership scholar Manfred Kets de Vries, the answer isn't in the strategy itself, but in the psychology of the people making decisions.
In this thought-provoking episode, Maureen Metcalf sits down with one of the world's foremost experts on leadership psychology to explore how unconscious patterns, executive blind spots, and the dynamics of power quietly shape organizations.
Together they discuss:
Why self-awareness is one of a leader's greatest competitive advantages
How micromanagement, hubris, and executive blind spots spread throughout an organization
Why many executive teams remain misaligned despite strong talent
The hidden cost of leaders who stop receiving honest feedback
Practical ways boards and executive teams can build trust, alignment, and psychological safety.
T his conversation offers powerful insights into the human dynamics that determine whether strategies ultimately succeed or fail.
 
 
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- (Henry Mintsberg episodes – Manfred worked with him)
 
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Learn more about Manfred and his work at his Institute’s website: https://kdvi.com/.
 
To learn more about his academic work and case studies, read his faculty page at https://www.insead.edu/faculty/manfred-f-r-kets-de-vries.
 
His many books include the titles he mentioned in the interview, including: The Neurotic Organization (available in hardback at https://amzn.to/4wauotJ).
 
And his Medium channel is at Manfred Kets de Vries – Medium.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
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OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
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About Our Guest:  
Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries is Distinguished Clinical Professor of Leadership Development and Organizational Change at INSEAD and the Raoul de Vitry d'Avaucourt Chaired Professor of Leadership Development, Emeritus. A pioneer in applying psychology and psychoanalysis to leadership and organizational behavior, he founded INSEAD's Global Leadership Centre and has spent decades helping senior executives and boards become more reflective, effective leaders. Recognized as one of the world's leading management thinkers, he has authored nearly 50 books and more than 400 articles on leadership, executive coaching, organizational transformation, and the dynamics of human behavior.

Guest: Cindy Wigglesworth
 
Can leaders continue to grow after mastering emotional intelligence?
For years, leadership development has emphasized IQ and Emotional Intelligence (EQ) as essential capabilities. But there is another dimension that separates good leaders from truly exceptional ones.
In this episode, Maureen Metcalf welcomes Cindy Wigglesworth, founder of Deep Change and creator of the groundbreaking SQ21® Spiritual Intelligence assessment, to explore how leaders can cultivate greater wisdom, compassion, and self-awareness without sacrificing practical business results.
Rather than discussing spirituality as religion or philosophy, Cindy presents Spiritual Intelligence (SQ) as a measurable, learnable set of leadership skills that help people move beyond reactive decision-making toward wiser, more thoughtful leadership.
Together, they explore:
Why IQ and EQ alone are no longer enough for today's leaders
The four intelligences that support effective leadership
How Spiritual Intelligence helps leaders move beyond ego and emotional triggers
Why wisdom and compassion are practical leadership competencies
The relationship between adult development, leadership maturity, and SQ
The SOUL framework for making better decisions under pressure.
Whether you lead an organization, a team, or simply want to become a wiser version of yourself, this conversation offers practical insights for navigating today's increasingly complex world.
 
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- How Inner Work Transforms Your Leadership: Tools for Growth with Jonathan Reams
- Leading from Within - A Former Navy SEAL on Transforming Yourself to Lead Others with Diego Ugalde
- Working & Living in Joy with Pamela Larde
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Cindy’s groundbreaking book is SQ21: The Twnety-One Skills of Spiritual Intelligence. It’s available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4yLi3hW. The audiobook version is at https://amzn.to/3Tgqphw.
 
You can also learn more at her website: https://deepchange.com/.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 . The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
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OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
Instagram: @innovativeleader 
 
Loved this episode? Like and subscribe! 
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About Our Guest:  
Cindy Wigglesworth, MA, is the Founder and President of Deep Change, Inc. and a recognized pioneer in the field of Spiritual Intelligence (SQ). She developed the SQ21® Spiritual Intelligence Assessment, a research-based, skills-focused framework that helps individuals and organizations cultivate greater wisdom, compassion, and leadership effectiveness. Her practical, faith-neutral approach has made Spiritual Intelligence accessible for executive leadership development, organizational transformation, diversity initiatives, and personal growth.
 
Cindy created SQ21® in collaboration with researchers and psychometric experts to provide a measurable pathway for developing Spiritual Intelligence. She is the author of the bestselling SQ21: The Twenty-One Skills of Spiritual Intelligence and co-author (as Cynthia S. Graves) of Grown-Up Children Who Won't Grow Up.

What if your organization's leadership shortage isn't a talent problem, but a leadership job design problem?
Many organizations are investing heavily in leadership development while watching their leadership pipelines grow weaker. Why? According to Gallagher's latest research, talented employees are looking at leadership roles and deciding they don't want them.
In this episode, Maureen Metcalf speaks with Steve Dion, National Managing Director of Leadership and Organizational Development at Gallagher, about why traditional leadership systems are struggling to meet today's realities, and what organizations can do to reverse the trend.
Together they explore:
How burnout, workload, and outdated role design discourage future leaders
Why leadership pipelines reflect leadership systems, not just talent availability
Why succession planning must become an ongoing organizational capability instead of an annual exercise
Practical steps CEOs and boards can take today to strengthen leadership capacity for the future.
Rather than asking how to train better leaders, this conversation asks a more important question: How do we create leadership roles that talented people genuinely want to fill?
 
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- Leading to Shape the Future: Theory U with Otto Scharmer
- Rethinking Leadership for the Future with Cynthia Cherrey
- Back to the Future…of Work with Jim Ritchie-Dunham, Suzie Lewis, & David Dinwoodie
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Learn more about Gallagher’s leadership research at https://www.ajg.com/. 
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
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OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
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About Our Guest:  
Steve Dion is National Managing Director of Leadership and Organizational Development at Gallagher, where he leads a team helping organizations strengthen culture, develop leaders at every level, and improve organizational performance. With more than 30 years of HR, executive leadership, and consulting experience, he previously founded and served as CEO of Dion Leadership, an award-winning leadership development and executive coaching firm that joined Gallagher in 2025. He is widely recognized for helping organizations translate complex people challenges into practical strategies that improve engagement, retention, leadership effectiveness, and business results.

Guests: Dave DuBose & Will O’Brien
What if your labor shortage isn't really a hiring problem?
When workers are scarce, the conventional responses are predictable: raise wages, offer bonuses, hire earlier, add temporary labor, and hope you make it through the next peak. But what if those tactics are treating the symptoms while leaving the real problem untouched?
Supply chain leaders Will O'Brien and Dave DuBose join Maureen Metcalf to challenge the way leaders think about workforce shortages. Drawing on decades of experience in operations, supply chain, and organizational transformation, they argue that lasting solutions begin by asking a more fundamental question: Does the work itself need to be redesigned?
The conversation explores how organizations can reduce unnecessary labor, use technology more strategically, rethink fulfillment and operating models, expand the pool of people they can successfully employ, and become “sticky employers”: organizations that create enough genuine value for employees that leaving becomes unthinkable.
You'll also hear why wage increases alone rarely create a sustainable advantage, how benefits such as childcare can become hard business investments, why yesterday's most efficient operating model may become today's vulnerability, and how reactive workforce planning can reveal a deeper leadership problem.
When the environment changes structurally, working harder inside the old system isn't a strategy. Sometimes the system itself has to change.
This conversation begins in supply chain, but its implications reach any leader facing talent scarcity, retention challenges, rising costs, technological disruption, or an operating model built for a world that no longer exists.
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- Looking at Labor Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow with Kevin Cassidy & Christopher Washington
- What Leaders Miss in the Talent Shortage Myth with Doug McCollough
- Developing Future-Fit Employees with Faris Alami and Christopher Washington
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES: 
Learn more about Dave & Will’s work at their company website, https://truenorthgrowthpartners.com/.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.
 
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OUR PODCAST TEAM: 
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross (Kgross@innovativeleadership.com)
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US:
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!
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About Our Guests: 
Will O'Brien is a Partner at True North Growth Partners and an executive leader and advisor with more than 30 years of experience in operations, supply chain, and business transformation. His career includes executive leadership roles in industry and consulting, including Lowe's and Sedlak Supply Chain Consultants. Will helps organizations improve operational performance, align people, processes, and technology, and build the capabilities needed for sustainable growth.
Dave DuBose is a Partner at True North Growth Partners and an executive advisor and transformation leader with more than 30 years of experience. His career includes leadership roles with Pepsi Bottling Group, Accenture, Limited Brands, IBM, and Sedlak. Dave helps organizations align strategy, operations, people, and technology to execute complex transformations, improve performance, and achieve sustainable business results.

Guests: Greg Moran & Christopher Washington
What if your organization's biggest competitive disadvantage isn't your strategy; it's how long it takes to turn insight into action?
Many leadership teams are filled with smart, experienced people, yet they still struggle to respond quickly to problems. The issue is rarely the quality of their leaders. It's the system those leaders are working within.
In this episode, Dr. Christopher Washington and Greg Moran introduce Decision Velocity, a practical leadership framework designed to help organizations move from recognizing important signals to taking coordinated action before opportunity becomes crisis.
Together, they explore the six capabilities that determine whether organizations adapt effectively:
Sensing meaningful change before it becomes a crisis• Building shared understanding across leadership teams• Aligning organizations through effective sense-giving• Making better strategic decisions• Activating coordinated execution• Creating learning systems that continuously improve organizational performance.
Drawing on executive experience, governance expertise, systems thinking, and real-world examples from Ford and Toyota, Christopher and Greg demonstrate why adaptive organizations consistently outperform those that simply try to make decisions faster.
What You'll Discover:• Why decision velocity is not the same as decision speed• The hidden leadership systems that create organizational friction• How high-performing organizations detect and respond to change sooner• Why shared understanding matters more than perfect agreement• The leadership discipline that separates adaptive organizations from everyone else.
Decision Velocity isn't simply about making better decisions. It's about building organizations that continuously sense, interpret, decide, execute, learn, and adapt.
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- Why Smart Companies Make Bad Decisions with Mats Alvesson
- When Leaders Put Life on the Line: Navigating Tough Decisions with Judge Beverley McLachlin
- How AI Preserves Humanity at Ancestry with Howard Hochhauser
 
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Learn more about our new Think Tank at https://bit.ly/ILI-ThinkTank.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
-----------------------  
OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross (Kgross@innovativeleadership.com)
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
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About Our Guests:  
Dr. Christopher Washington is the president of the Innovative Leadership Institute Think Tank. A strategic leader, systems thinker, and seasoned academic executive with over three decades of experience strengthening nonprofit and educational organizations, he served as Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs at Franklin University and is a long-standing contributor to the Forbes Nonprofit Council. He previously served as CEO of Urbana University and has held leadership roles on numerous national and international nonprofit boards. 
Greg Moran is the CTO of Pyx Health, the female-led and LGBTQI+ founded working with national health insurance plans to improve access to quality care. Through his extensive career, Greg has been a director, founder, advisor and operating executive with extensive global operations experience (U.S., Europe and Asia). He holds a strong market focus with deep technology experience, including start-up, scaling, restructuring, sales, finance, and operations.

Guests: Scott Dresser & Sandy Gordon, Amazon VPs
As organizations race to adopt AI and automation, many leaders are asking the wrong question. The challenge isn't how to deploy better technology. It's how to build human-centered systems that allow people and technology to thrive together.
In this special episode, Maureen Metcalf speaks with two Amazon executives responsible for making one of the world's most complex organizations work at extraordinary scale. Sandy Gordon, Vice President of Global Operations Employee Experience & Relations, shares how Amazon builds trust, develops talent, and creates systems that empower more than one million employees. Scott Dresser, Vice President of Amazon Robotics, explains how robotics, AI, and automation are designed to improve safety, increase capability, and support—NOT replace—the human workforce.
Together, these conversations reveal that sustainable innovation isn't driven by technology alone. It depends on thoughtful leadership, continuous learning, and a commitment to keeping people at the center of organizational transformation.
Whether you're leading AI initiatives, organizational change, digital transformation, or simply trying to build a stronger organization, you'll discover practical leadership lessons that extend far beyond Amazon…applying to any organization preparing for the future of work.
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- With Great Success Comes Great Responsibility with Holly Sullivan
- Building the Systems (and People) That Sustain Growth with Carla Morelli
- AI, Your Story, & the Professional Identity Crisis with Christopher Washington
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
To learn more about the Career Choice program Sandy discussed, check https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/workplace/career-choice-free-education-for-amazon-employees.
 
For more about the robotics developments Scott talked about, read the stories at https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/tag/robotics.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
-----------------------  
OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross (Kgross@innovativeleadership.com)
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
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About Our Guests:  
This episode brings together two leaders responsible for different (but deeply connected) parts of Amazon's global operations. Sandy Gordon leads the employee experience systems that support more than one million frontline employees, while Scott Dresser leads the robotics and AI systems that power Amazon's fulfillment network. Together, they offer complementary perspectives on a single leadership challenge: how organizations can scale technology without losing sight of the people who make that technology successful.
 
Sandy is Vice President of Global Operations Employee Experience & Relations at Amazon; her organization focuses on employee engagement, workplace experience, leadership communications, career development, and policies that help create a safe, inclusive, and high-performing work environment. She also oversees initiatives such as Amazon's Career Choice program, which invests in employee education and workforce development.
 
Scott is Vice President of Amazon Robotics. His organization designs autonomous mobile robots, robotic manipulation systems, AI-driven automation, and intelligent warehouse technologies that improve safety, operational efficiency, and customer delivery performance. He has been instrumental in the development and deployment of technologies including Proteus, Sequoia, Sparrow, Robin, and Amazon's next generation of AI-enabled robotics.

Guest: Mats Alvesson
If your organization is full of smart people, why does it keep making bad decisions?
In this thought-provoking episode, Maureen Metcalf and Christopher Washington are joined by Professor Mats Alvesson, one of the world's leading organizational scholars and author of The Stupidity Paradox.
Alvesson introduces the concept of “functional stupidity”—the tendency for intelligent individuals and organizations to stop questioning assumptions, rely on familiar routines, and prioritize conformity over critical thinking. Mats explores how bureaucracy, excessive processes, organizational rituals, and the desire to preserve social harmony can unintentionally suppress good judgment and slow organizational learning.
Alvesson also offers practical ideas for creating cultures that encourage reflection, initiative, and thoughtful challenge without sacrificing organizational effectiveness.
This episode offers valuable insights into how organizations can become smarter by questioning more, and doing less of what no longer serves them.
 
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- How Inner Work Transforms Your Leadership: Tools for Growth with Jonathan Reams
- How to Avoid the Bad Leader Trap with Harvard fellow Barbara Kellerman
- Navigating the Global Storm with Cynthia Cherrey
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Mats’ book, The Stupidity Paradox, is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/3SaNWzU.
The other book he mentioned, The Art of Less: How to Focus on What Really Matters at Work, is available in hardback at https://amzn.to/4a7yOt9 and on Kindle at https://amzn.to/4eANySA.
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
-----------------------  
OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross (Kgross@innovativeleadership.com)
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
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About Our Guest:  
Professor Mats Alvesson is a Swedish management scholar and Professor of Organizational Studies at Lund University. Widely regarded as one of the most influential thinkers in organization and management studies, his work focuses on leadership, organizational culture, identity, power, critical management studies, and organizational irrationality. He is best known for developing the concept of functional stupidity: the tendency of organizations to suppress critical thinking and reflection despite employing highly intelligent people. Alvesson has authored more than 30 books and hundreds of scholarly publications, including The Stupidity Paradox, The Art of Less, Changing Organizational Culture, and Constructing Research Questions. He was elected an International Fellow of the British Academy in recognition of his contributions to management and organization studies.

Guests: Brian Ahearn Chief Influence Officer
 
Many leaders believe their job is to deliver results, not to be liked. But what if that assumption is limiting their effectiveness?
 
In this episode, Maureen Metcalf welcomes back Brian Ahearn to explore the leadership power of liking and reciprocity. Drawing on decades of research in influence, Brian explains why people are more willing to support leaders they trust, how small acts of generosity create lasting professional relationships, and why fear-based leadership is increasingly ineffective in today's workplace.
 
It all reveals the underlying, surprising business value of genuine human connection. Through practical examples and real-world leadership stories, Brian demonstrates how leaders can build stronger cultures, improve performance, and create workplaces where people genuinely want to contribute.
 
Whether you lead a team of five or an organization of five thousand, this conversation offers insights for becoming a more influential, trusted, and effective leader.
 
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- How Great Leaders Influence (without Manipulating) with Briah Ahearn
- How Influence Leads to Great Influence with Brian Ahearn
- How AI Preserves Humanity with Ancestry CEO Howard Hochhauser
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
The website for Brian’s company, Influence People, is https://influencepeople.biz/. He has a regular blog there at https://influencepeople.biz/blog/.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 . The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
-----------------------  
OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
 
Loved this episode? Like and subscribe! 
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About Our Guests:  
Brian Ahearn is the Chief Influence Officer at Influence PEOPLE and a faculty member at The Cialdini Institute. An international keynote speaker and TEDx presenter, Brian is an expert in the science of influence, certified in the Cialdini Method for Persuasion and Pre-suasion. Brian is the author of "Influence PEOPLE" and "Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents." His insights have reached over 700,000 people through his LinkedIn courses and more than a million views on his TEDx Talk. Brian’s latest work, "The Influencer: Secrets to Success & Happiness," weaves these teachings into an engaging business parable.

Guest: Holly Sullivan, Amazon VP of Worldwide Economic Development
What happens when leadership decisions affect not just an organization, but entire communities?
In this episode, Maureen Metcalf speaks with Holly Sullivan, Vice President of Worldwide Economic Development at Amazon. Holly oversees initiatives that influence billions of dollars in investment, workforce development, infrastructure, and community partnerships across the United States and beyond.
Their conversation explores how organizations can create lasting value while balancing growth, responsibility, and community impact. Holly shares lessons from Amazon's investments in rural communities, workforce development programs, affordable housing initiatives, disaster relief efforts, and efforts to expand economic opportunity through education and broadband access.
Together, they discuss what it means to lead responsibly at scale, why trust and community engagement matter, how organizations can become better corporate citizens, and the role leaders play in creating opportunities that extend far beyond their own businesses.
This episode offers practical insights on building stronger communities while creating sustainable growth.
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- Building Communities within Your Business with Alice Yoo LeClair
- Inside Amazon’s Big Bets: Leading on Climate and Delivery with Kara Hurst and Sarah Matthew
- Four Key Lessons on Trust & Safety with Catherine Teitelbaum, Amazon’s Head of Family Trust
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Learn more about the community development work Holly oversees for Amazon at https://bit.ly/Amazon-Community.
 
The study on the impact of distribution centers on their local communities is at https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/resource/the-socioeconomic-impacts-of-amazon-investments-on-local-communities/.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
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OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross (Kgross@innovativeleadership.com)
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
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About Our Guest:  
Holly Sullivan is Vice President of Worldwide Economic Development at Amazon, where she leads global economic development strategy and investment initiatives focused on job creation, workforce development, and community impact. During her tenure, she spearheaded Amazon's search for its second headquarters in Arlington, Virginia, led development of the company's Nashville operations hub, and helped drive expansion across North America's technology footprint. Prior to joining Amazon, Holly served as President and CEO of the Montgomery Business Development Corporation in Maryland. She holds bachelor's and master's degrees from the University of Tennessee and is widely recognized for her work at the intersection of economic growth, community development, and corporate investment.

Guests: Christopher & Sheila Cooke
Today's leaders face a paradox: the problems confronting organizations are increasingly complex, yet the leadership approaches we've relied on for decades are producing diminishing returns.
In this episode, Maureen Metcalf is joined by Christopher and Sheila Cooke, founders of Five Deep and pioneers in the study of human emergence, developmental leadership, and systems awareness. Together, they explore why meaningful transformation requires more than new strategies; it requires access to human capacities we already have (but haven’t fully developed).
Through examples ranging from organizational change initiatives to community transformation efforts in Africa, Christopher and Sheila demonstrate how leaders can create the conditions that allow innovation, adaptability, and sustainable change to emerge naturally.
They discuss:• Why people cannot absorb solutions they are not ready to receive• The hidden capacities that enable leaders to navigate complexity• How systems awareness leads to better decisions and better outcomes• Why forcing change often creates resistance while creating conditions for change unlocks possibility, and• The relationship between leadership development, organizational effectiveness, and human potential.
If you've ever wondered why some transformation efforts succeed while others stall, this conversation offers a powerful new lens.
"The change has already happened. You're just learning to grow into it."
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- Growing Up and Out: Development for Modern Leaders with Mike Morrow-Fox
- Becoming a Better Leader: Daily Leadership Development with Ron Riggio
- Amplifying Human Potential with Seth Casden
 
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
Learn more about 5 Deep, the company Christopher founded, at https://www.5deep.net/.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 . The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
-----------------------  
OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
Instagram: @innovativeleader 
 
Loved this episode? Like and subscribe! 
-----------------------  
About Our Guests:  
Sheila Cooke holds an MBA in International Business and a BA in Sociology/Anthropology. She spent approximately 20 years in international business, including five years as a general manager in Japan, before moving into facilitation, education, and organizational development. She is a qualified trainer with the Institute of Cultural Affairs and has designed and facilitated programs for the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) in Rome. Today, Sheila serves as Director and lead consultant within 5 Deep Limited and leads 3LM (Land and Livestock Management for Life), the Savory Institute hub for the United Kingdom and Ireland. As a Savory Institute Accredited Educator and Field Professional, she advises farmers, organizations, and business leaders in Holistic Management and regenerative agriculture, helping them develop decision-making capabilities that align economic, ecological, and social outcomes.
 
Christopher Cooke is the founder of 5 Deep Limited, a consultancy focused on human development, leadership, cultural transformation, complexity, and change. He has worked internationally for nearly three decades as a consultant, coach, mentor, trainer, and change-management specialist.
 
Prior to founding 5 Deep, Christopher worked in the United Kingdom water industry, where he participated in major transformation efforts associated with privatization and organizational change. Through 5 Deep and 3LM, he has focused on helping individuals, organizations, and communities increase their capacity to navigate complexity through integrative and holistic approaches to human behavior, culture, leadership, and decision-making. His work spans business, agriculture, community development, and regenerative land management across multiple continents.

Guest: Howard Hochhauser, CEO, Ancestry
Many organizations are rushing to embrace AI, launch new initiatives, and pursue growth. But in the process, they’re losing sight of the very things that made them successful in the first place: their mission, their customers, and their identity.
In this episode, Maureen Metcalf sits down with Howard Hochhauser, CEO of Ancestry, to explore how he helped return the company to growth by refocusing on its core customers, clarifying its mission, and using artificial intelligence to deepen human connection rather than replace it.
Howard shares leadership lessons from his experiences working with legendary entrepreneurs such as Martha Stewart, explains why he uses his mother as a decision-making North Star, and discusses how Ancestry is transforming billions of historical records into meaningful family stories. The conversation also explores ethical AI, organizational focus, customer-centered leadership, and the power of understanding where we come from.
This episode offers practical insights on how to innovate without losing the soul of your organization.
Topics include:
Customer-centered leadership• Strategic focus in the age of AI• Ethical and human-centered AI• Organizational culture and transparency• Building customer loyalty and trust• Family history, resilience, and legacy• Mission-driven growth• Leadership lessons from transformation.
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
- Looking Back to Look Ahead: Leadership, Tech, & Knowing Your Roots with Deb Liu
- The Leadership Skill AI Can’t Replace: Super Creativity with James Taylor
- How Great Leaders Influence (without Manipulating) with Brian Ahearn
For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
RESOURCES:  
There’s a wealth of information on Howard’s company at https://www.ancestry.com/. You can also follow him on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/howard-hochhauser-5791b810/.
 
Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here. 
 
Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.
 
Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here. 
 
-----------------------  
OUR PODCAST TEAM:  
Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf
Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko
Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan
Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross (Kgross@innovativeleadership.com)
Booking Producer: Jenna Reik (Jreik@innovativeleadership.com)
Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.
 
CONNECT WITH US: 
YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership 
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 
Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com 
 
Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! 
-----------------------  
About Our Guest:  
Howard Hochhauser was named President & CEO of Ancestry, the global leader in family history and consumer genomics, in February 2025. Howard joined Ancestry in 2009 as Chief Financial Officer and in February 2012 added the position of Chief Operating Officer. Howard also served as interim CEO of Ancestry from October 2017 to May 2018 while the Board conducted a comprehensive search for a permanent CEO. 
During his tenure, Howard has helped lead the company’s initial 2009 public offering, its go-private transaction in 2012, multiple acquisitions, and all of its public equity and debt financings. He was part of the team that grew the company from approximately $200 million in revenue in 2008 to more than $1.3 billion in revenue in 2024, a compound annual growth rate of 12.5. 
Prior to joining Ancestry, Howard served as Chief Financial Officer of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, and earlier in his career was a Vice President of Equity Research at Bear Stearns & Co. and a Staff Accountant at KPMG Peat Marwick.